Why a bear market rally not a bull market?
Valuations are cheap but should be cheaper.
More here
When someone shares with you something of value, you have an obligation to share it with others.
Wednesday, 23 July 2008
Lost in the new Beijing: The old neighbourhood

BEIJING: Historical cycles that took a century to unfold in the West can be compressed into less than a decade in today’s China. And that’s as true of Beijing’s preservation movement as it is of the nation’s ferocious building boom.
More here
Why have oil prices been falling?
Oil prices have risen to record levels in recent weeks, with traders in London and New York paying more than $147 a barrel for crude oil at its peak on 11 July.
But since then, prices have fallen on both sides of the Atlantic, dipping almost 13% to a low of $128.23 for a barrel for US light sweet crude on 18 July, and down 10% to $129.66 for Brent crude.
More in comments...
But since then, prices have fallen on both sides of the Atlantic, dipping almost 13% to a low of $128.23 for a barrel for US light sweet crude on 18 July, and down 10% to $129.66 for Brent crude.
More in comments...
Monday, 21 July 2008
World’s Most Economically Powerful Cities
What’s the world’s most economically powerful city?
If you picked New York or Tokyo, you’d be wrong.
More in comments
If you picked New York or Tokyo, you’d be wrong.
More in comments
Sunday, 20 July 2008
How emotional pain can really hurt
Love really does hurt, just as poets and song lyric writers claim.
More in comments...
More in comments...
Raising the bar
A rare slip-up in court by Singapore’s elder statesman, Lee Kuan Yew
More in comments
More in comments
What happens if oil prices rebound sharply?
The direction of change of international oil prices during the remainder of the year will, in our view, heavily influence the near-term fate of the global economy and international financial markets. Falls in global oil prices, of the kind we have seen over the past few days, clearly brighten the prospects for the global economy. Conversely, a possible return to rapid increases in oil prices could have a disastrously negative influence on global growth.
More
More
Saturday, 19 July 2008
House prices ‘will keep falling’
House prices in the UK and the US are likely to fall for another two years, the chairman of one of the world’s most powerful banks has warned.
Sir Win Bischoff of Citigroup told BBC Business Editor Robert Peston he expects it will take two years for the markets to “stabilise”.
More in comments...
Sir Win Bischoff of Citigroup told BBC Business Editor Robert Peston he expects it will take two years for the markets to “stabilise”.
More in comments...
Friday, 18 July 2008
Expect More Crisis
IndyMac has failed. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been hobbled but kept alive by a government and Federal Reserve rescue.
All of this happened just weeks after President Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson claimed that the worst of the credit crisis had passed. Don't believe anyone who tells you that the worst is over until the banks, insurance companies, investment funds and mortgage companies that hold securitized debts fess up to what those securities are actually worth. The problem isn't that the securities are illiquid, it's that the prices should be lower than the financial institutions are willing to admit.
More in comments...
All of this happened just weeks after President Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson claimed that the worst of the credit crisis had passed. Don't believe anyone who tells you that the worst is over until the banks, insurance companies, investment funds and mortgage companies that hold securitized debts fess up to what those securities are actually worth. The problem isn't that the securities are illiquid, it's that the prices should be lower than the financial institutions are willing to admit.
More in comments...
Thursday, 17 July 2008
2 + 20, and Other Hedge Fund Math
MANY people would jump at the chance to invest in hedge funds, which have mainly been available to only the very wealthy. But a new study finds that the funds’ high fees make it unlikely that investors will improve their long-term performance by putting money into hedge funds.
More in comments...
More in comments...
Wednesday, 16 July 2008
Singapore Property
A Hong Kong based Asia property analyst for a small successful private investment bank was asked if he should buy property in Singapore
More in comments...
More in comments...
Tuesday, 15 July 2008
Qipao - a statement of Oriental beauty
Singapore's judiciary system is still third world standard
'If the prosecution allowed their own witnesses to see their statements, I can't see why they should deny it to the defendant.' - LAWYER EDMOND PEREIRA
Read "Judge slams CNB for complete neglect of duties" here.
Read "Judge slams CNB for complete neglect of duties" here.
Fannie, Freddie crisis not the last: Soros
Billionaire investor George Soros said that the crisis over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will not be the last, and noted that the broader credit meltdown will impact an already slowing United States economy.
More in comments
More in comments
Monday, 14 July 2008
The mortgage lender illusion
It’s dispiriting indeed to watch the U.S. financial system, supposedly the envy of the world, being taken to its knees. But that’s the show we’re watching, brought to you by somnambulant regulators, greedy bank executives and incompetent corporate directors.
More in comments
More in comments
Battle for China
British experts and scholars held a heated public debate in London Saturday on some key issues of China’s recent development and called for a balanced portrayal of China.
More in comments
More in comments
Saturday, 12 July 2008
ILM study confirms growing power of Chinese managers
China has the fastest growing global economy and – according to research by the Institute of Leadership & Management (ILM) – also boasts a highly ambitious, sophisticated and commercially astute management population that poses a rising challenge to managers and businesses in the West.
More in comments
More in comments
Unlimited rise in oil price in case of Iran war: Opec
Cartel won’t be able to make up lost output, says its head
VIENNA) The head of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) warned on Thursday that oil prices would experience an ‘unlimited’ increase in the event of a military conflict involving Iran because the group’s members would be unable to make up the lost production.
More in comments
VIENNA) The head of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) warned on Thursday that oil prices would experience an ‘unlimited’ increase in the event of a military conflict involving Iran because the group’s members would be unable to make up the lost production.
More in comments
Friday, 11 July 2008
A Nightmare for the U.S.
The Voice (issue 264 - 11th May) ran an article beginning, ‘Iran has really gone and done it now. No, they haven’t sent their first nuclear sub in to the Persian Gulf. They are about to launch something much more deadly – next week the Iran Bourse will open to trade oil, not in dollars but in Euros’. This apparently insignificant event has consequences far greater for the US people, indeed all for us all, than is imaginable.
More in comments
More in comments
Thursday, 10 July 2008
Most Obnoxious Tourists? The French
Remember the tightwad tourist whose baggy shorts, frequent complaining and shouted questions about why none of the locals spoke any English made the ugly American the world’s Visitor From Hell? Well, it’s time for Archie Bunker to move over and make way for Petulant Pierre. According to a recent international survey, the French are now considered the most obnoxious tourists from European nations, and behind only Indians and the last-place Chinese as the worst among all countries worldwide.
More in comments...
More in comments...
Singapore’s Minister Mentor Slips Up Under Oath
Lee Kuan Yew testifies to a laudatory letter that was never sent by an international legal organization
It was the kind of error that would earn a Singapore opposition politician a trial for perjury, probably with a heavy fine and perhaps a jail term. But when Lee Kuan Yew testified in the recent trial of opposition leader Chee Soon Juan probably “misspoke” – told a crucial untruth, deliberate or not.
More in comments
It was the kind of error that would earn a Singapore opposition politician a trial for perjury, probably with a heavy fine and perhaps a jail term. But when Lee Kuan Yew testified in the recent trial of opposition leader Chee Soon Juan probably “misspoke” – told a crucial untruth, deliberate or not.
More in comments
Singapore falls short on rights: lawyers' group
It said the Singapore judiciary had a good international reputation when adjudicating commercial cases that did not involve the interests of PAP members or their associates.
"However, in cases involving PAP litigants or PAP interests, there are concerns about an actual or apparent lack of impartiality and/or independence," it said.
More in comments
"However, in cases involving PAP litigants or PAP interests, there are concerns about an actual or apparent lack of impartiality and/or independence," it said.
More in comments
Wednesday, 9 July 2008
Monday, 7 July 2008
A National Cleansing
When a distinguished American military commander accuses the United States of committing war crimes in its handling of detainees, you know that the country needs a new way forward.
Full article in comments
Full article in comments
Saturday, 5 July 2008
Friday, 4 July 2008
Credit Suisse Calls for a rebound in July
Our tactical indicators suggest taking a net long position in July following the heavy sell-off of Asian equities last month.
Six indicators with positive signals. This is a massive increase compared to last month, where only one indicator scored with a positive signal (EPS revisions). They range from price technical, earnings revisions, valuations and liquidity pattern. On the other hand, two indicators have negative signals: the OECD lead indicators and the rising volatility of Asian equities.
Full article here
Six indicators with positive signals. This is a massive increase compared to last month, where only one indicator scored with a positive signal (EPS revisions). They range from price technical, earnings revisions, valuations and liquidity pattern. On the other hand, two indicators have negative signals: the OECD lead indicators and the rising volatility of Asian equities.
Full article here
Thursday, 3 July 2008
Sarkozy not wanted at Olympics
Wednesday, 2 July 2008
China rules no skimpily dressed bar staff from Oct
BEIJING - CHINA’S government has told discos, karaoke bars and other entertainment venues to install windows in private rooms and ensure staff dress modestly from Oct 1 as part of an effort to crack down on prostitution and drugs.
According to rules released on the Ministry of Public Security’s website, entertainment venues must install transparent partitions between rooms that ensure ‘the whole environment of the consumer’s entertainment area in the room can be seen’.
‘When open for business, the transparent part of rooms and windows to rooms at singing and dancing entertainment venues must not be obstructed,’ the rules say.
Discos, karaoke nightclubs and other bars in China frequently have private rooms for hire, and are a favourite places for businessmen to entertain guests, sometimes with prostitutes, which is illegal in China.
Staff clothing is also covered in the new rules. ‘Staff members should dress tastefully, and not be too exposing.’ Other rules demand closed circuit television cameras be installed and security guards placed at discos. -- REUTERS
According to rules released on the Ministry of Public Security’s website, entertainment venues must install transparent partitions between rooms that ensure ‘the whole environment of the consumer’s entertainment area in the room can be seen’.
‘When open for business, the transparent part of rooms and windows to rooms at singing and dancing entertainment venues must not be obstructed,’ the rules say.
Discos, karaoke nightclubs and other bars in China frequently have private rooms for hire, and are a favourite places for businessmen to entertain guests, sometimes with prostitutes, which is illegal in China.
Staff clothing is also covered in the new rules. ‘Staff members should dress tastefully, and not be too exposing.’ Other rules demand closed circuit television cameras be installed and security guards placed at discos. -- REUTERS
Tuesday, 1 July 2008
Monday, 30 June 2008
HK market may not have seen bottom yet
Analysts expect more bad news this year
Read full article in comments
Read full article in comments
Sunday, 29 June 2008
Reaction to LKY's Speech on the Possibility of a Freak Election
Some notable reactions gathered from various places.
China Bulls Get Shanghaied
“Every time bubbles pop, they tend to go down 80%, even as much as 90%,” says Nicholas Vardy, who edits the Global Guru and Global Stock Investor newsletters from his home base in London.
So, where would the ultimate lows be? “1,200, that’s where I’d put it,” says Vardy. That’s another 50%+ decline from Shanghai’s current price around 2,900.
Read full article in comments.
So, where would the ultimate lows be? “1,200, that’s where I’d put it,” says Vardy. That’s another 50%+ decline from Shanghai’s current price around 2,900.
Read full article in comments.
Saturday, 28 June 2008
Iras refuses to say sorry for its mistakes
上梁不正下梁歪
Read the letter to Straits Times forum in comments.
Read the letter to Straits Times forum in comments.
Additional spots where speed traps were seen
1) PIE towards airport near Toa Payoh exit, tripod mounted speed camera at the pedestrian overhead bridge. 90km/h.
2) PIE towards Jurong near Adam road exit, tripod mounted speed camera over at Adam Road flyover. 90km/h.
3) Braddell Road after Bishan Junction towards CTE, tripod mounted speed camera at the pedestrian overhead bridge. 60/kmh.
4) Queensway towards Bukit Merah, tripod mounted speed camera under tree before Ridout McDonalds. 60km/h.
5) Spot along Upper Bukit Timah Rd towards Woodlands Rd, tripod mounted speed camera under tree after a curve turn - 60km/h.
Fine imposed is $170 and 8 demerit points.
2) PIE towards Jurong near Adam road exit, tripod mounted speed camera over at Adam Road flyover. 90km/h.
3) Braddell Road after Bishan Junction towards CTE, tripod mounted speed camera at the pedestrian overhead bridge. 60/kmh.
4) Queensway towards Bukit Merah, tripod mounted speed camera under tree before Ridout McDonalds. 60km/h.
5) Spot along Upper Bukit Timah Rd towards Woodlands Rd, tripod mounted speed camera under tree after a curve turn - 60km/h.
Fine imposed is $170 and 8 demerit points.
LTA - get fined $130 for dropping someone off at or near the bus stop
LTA has contracted six traffic wardens from a private company at $34,000 a year to take down the licence plate number, make and colour of vehicles that intrude into bus lanes at peak hours. (They are incognito with camera in hands......so don't expect to see a TP, etc.)
Note you can get fined $130 for dropping someone off at or near the bus stop.
LTA has intensified their operations at the following
1) Eunos Link
2) Hougang Ave 3
3) Jurong Town Hall Rd
4) Lorong Chuan
5) Orchard Rd
6) Upper Serangoon Rd
7) Upper Thomson Rd
8) Yishun Ave 2
Note you can get fined $130 for dropping someone off at or near the bus stop.
LTA has intensified their operations at the following
1) Eunos Link
2) Hougang Ave 3
3) Jurong Town Hall Rd
4) Lorong Chuan
5) Orchard Rd
6) Upper Serangoon Rd
7) Upper Thomson Rd
8) Yishun Ave 2
Friday, 27 June 2008
Citigroup sinks to 10-year low, Goldman urges short sale
Now then Goldman call to sell short Citigroup? Way behind the curve!
Read full article in comments.
Read full article in comments.
Tuesday, 24 June 2008
Mrs Lee Kuan Yew suffers another massive haemorrhage while in hospital

Mrs Lee Kuan Yew has suffered another massive haemorrhage while in hospital on Tuesday.
A statement from Minister Mentor's Office said she is critically ill, with guarded prognosis for recovery.
Mrs Lee, 87, has been at Tan Tock Seng Hospital since May 12 after suffering a stroke, and has been under close observation.
A statement from Minister Mentor's Office said she is critically ill, with guarded prognosis for recovery.
Mrs Lee, 87, has been at Tan Tock Seng Hospital since May 12 after suffering a stroke, and has been under close observation.
Why is the stock market so quiet?
I suggested not to hold big or any overnight positions since early January. Reason was that we don't know when DJIA will drop few hundred points while we are sound asleep.
Another suggestion is not to chase any stock that has moved up 5 bids. This is particularly true for penny stocks. If you do chase, chances is I will buy the same stock from you cheaper 5 days later.
Another strategy that many day traders are using now is to wait for DJIA to drop few hundred points, and then buy stocks when prices gap down the next morning - hopping to sell on a rebound intra day.
There is no more retail and little fund participation in the market now. It's all prop traders and stockists playing amoung themselves.
Another suggestion is not to chase any stock that has moved up 5 bids. This is particularly true for penny stocks. If you do chase, chances is I will buy the same stock from you cheaper 5 days later.
Another strategy that many day traders are using now is to wait for DJIA to drop few hundred points, and then buy stocks when prices gap down the next morning - hopping to sell on a rebound intra day.
There is no more retail and little fund participation in the market now. It's all prop traders and stockists playing amoung themselves.
Monday, 23 June 2008
China's Falling Stocks Intertwined With Graft Probe
At first glance, the mainland’s plunging stock markets and an official probe earlier this month into activities of Wang Yi, deputy governor of the State Development Bank, bear little connection.
In fact, the two developing events are intricately intertwined, with details emerging in the past few weeks painting a sordid picture of the state of the mainland’s financial services, characterised by blatant official corruption, rampant insider dealing and a weak regulatory regime.
Full article in the comment.
In fact, the two developing events are intricately intertwined, with details emerging in the past few weeks painting a sordid picture of the state of the mainland’s financial services, characterised by blatant official corruption, rampant insider dealing and a weak regulatory regime.
Full article in the comment.
China's Regulatory Changes Aren’t Always Bad
Western fund managers don’t like recent government moves to perk up the A-share market, but Chinese observers argue the trend is right.
Full article in the comment.
Full article in the comment.
This week could get ugly for Wall Street
Fed’s anticipated tough inflation stance comes amid doubts about economy
Full article in the comment.
Full article in the comment.
New moves by China soon?
CHINESE regulators, alarmed at the slide in share values this year and persistent rampant volatility, are contemplating new measures to boost the stock market.
Full article in the comment.
Full article in the comment.
Sunday, 22 June 2008
Law of Returns
This law is simple. It is the law of returns. You get what you give. Those who give little, gets little in return, whether at work or elsewhere. Those who go the extra mile will be rewarded sooner or later.
Higher oil prices may slow China industry
The 20% increase in China's fuel prices will cut into the bottom line of energy intensive industries, such as cement, aluminum and steel. Their spectacular growth may come to a rapid end.
What companies are in the affected industries? E.g. FerroChina...
What companies are in the affected industries? E.g. FerroChina...
Friday, 20 June 2008
DJIA testing 3 years uptrend?
Thursday, 19 June 2008
Some Consistency in Punishment, Please
But it appears patently unfair for some to face a conviction in court — which carries a life‐long stain — while others receive what amounts to a slap on the wrist for similar offences. Some are even unlucky enough to be punished by more than one authority.
I would like to know “the facts and circumstances” that lead to the relevant agencies and the determination of the penalties: That is, civil or criminal action.
Read here
I would like to know “the facts and circumstances” that lead to the relevant agencies and the determination of the penalties: That is, civil or criminal action.
Read here
Trader Punished
A BROKER has lost his appeal against a three‐month suspension from trading for manipulating Nobel Design Holdings’ share price in the first market‐rigging case heard by Singapore Exchange (SGX) this year.
Read here
Read here
Monday, 16 June 2008
Sunday, 15 June 2008
Learn to let go
Learning to let go of things that we are most attached to is very difficult and yet an important part of life.
Monday, 9 June 2008
Duo-Liang Lin's Poem
When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.
When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your fair share.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet you screamed, It Was an Invasion!
When tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating human rights.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed-xenophobics.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.
We don't hate you either,
But, do you understand us?
Of course we do, you said,
We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...
What do you really want from us?
Think hard first, then answer...
Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.
************************************
Duo-Liang Lin, Ph. D.
Professor Emeritus of Physics
University at Buffalo
State University of New York
Buffalo, New York 14260-1500
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.
When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your fair share.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet you screamed, It Was an Invasion!
When tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating human rights.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed-xenophobics.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.
We don't hate you either,
But, do you understand us?
Of course we do, you said,
We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...
What do you really want from us?
Think hard first, then answer...
Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.
************************************
Duo-Liang Lin, Ph. D.
Professor Emeritus of Physics
University at Buffalo
State University of New York
Buffalo, New York 14260-1500
Sunday, 8 June 2008
Why are Chinese staying away from Zhang Yimou's movies?
Donations to Sichuan earthquake relief funds:
Sir Run Run Shaw - HK$ 100m
Jackie Chan & Albert Yeung - HK$ 10m
Zhang Ziyi - RMB 1m
Jet Li - RMB 1m
Gong Li - RMB 500k
Andy Lau - RMB 100k
Zhang Yimou - RMB 100k
Sir Run Run Shaw - HK$ 100m
Jackie Chan & Albert Yeung - HK$ 10m
Zhang Ziyi - RMB 1m
Jet Li - RMB 1m
Gong Li - RMB 500k
Andy Lau - RMB 100k
Zhang Yimou - RMB 100k
Saturday, 7 June 2008
My View of the Market
Now that the turmoil of the financial shocks are coming to an end, market is calm for now. But I believe we will experience another new shock in 2H08 when the global economy begins to tank. Many economies will begin to feel the effect of expensive oil - US$150/barrel is within sight. My take is stockmarket will fall drastically from around August. The water rat will come to destroy the fire (stockmarket). I also believe the prices for non-landed properties will fall painfully by 2010.
A reflection from Hell
A reflection from Hell
Friday, 21 March 2008
My last post before my forced break
‘A trader has a right to spread information,’ Mr David Meister, a former US federal prosecutor, told The Wall Street Journal yesterday.
‘What a trader does not have the right to do is knowingly spread false information with the purpose of trading to take advantage of that,’ he added.
Read here
‘What a trader does not have the right to do is knowingly spread false information with the purpose of trading to take advantage of that,’ he added.
Read here
Thursday, 20 March 2008
Baltic Dry Index

Ø The Baltic Dry Index may breakdown in near term as the MACD triggered a sell signal.
Ø It is trading marginally above the 200-day EMA but a decline below the 200-day EMA is likely to trigger a wave of selling.
Ø Further weakness is expected as the Stochastic Oscillator has trended lower.
Ø This is likely to have a negative effect on the Shipping stocks.
Wednesday, 19 March 2008
To those who support the Tibetan rioters
This is my message to them:
Free USA, Canada and Australia (Tibet). Aboriginals (Tibetans) get up on your horses, burn down the White House, loot the banks, and fire bomb the white men (Chinese) occupying your native land.
Free USA, Canada and Australia (Tibet). Aboriginals (Tibetans) get up on your horses, burn down the White House, loot the banks, and fire bomb the white men (Chinese) occupying your native land.
Tuesday, 18 March 2008
Monday, 17 March 2008
Belgian Tibet protest turns violent
Mar 16 - Tibetan protestors clash violently with police outside the Chinese embassy in Brussels.
Hundreds of protestors attempting to gain access to the Chinese embassy grounds were pushed to the ground and bitten by police dogs.
The protestors attempted to break down the gate and one suceeded on gaining entry to the grounds where he waved a Tibetan flag.
Police confirmed that they had arrested five Tibetans outside the Chinese embassy.
Sunday, 16 March 2008
HSI Dead Cross

Both the Hang Seng index and the H-share index recorded dead cross sell signals last week, the first since 2000 for the HSI and 2002 for the H-share index. A dead cross occurs when the 50-day moving average crosses below the 200-day moving average and signals the end of an uptrend and the start of a new downtrend.
Tibetan Rioters are not the Angels the West likes to portray
People like Richard Geere has vested interest, that's why he can't be trusted.
Peaceful protestors don't burn down buildings, loot shops and hurt innocent children and women. These Tibetans should be treated as who they are - hooligans and rioters.
Peaceful protestors don't burn down buildings, loot shops and hurt innocent children and women. These Tibetans should be treated as who they are - hooligans and rioters.
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